Perfect Poker Play

1-4-8-8 hand. I think I have a decent read of the table. I get K-K in last position. I raise pre-flop, get four callers. The flop comes 9-8-4 rainbow. I get bet into, raised by the bettor, get re-raised get 1 in between caller, I call. Next card, K, complete rainbow. Bet into, I raise, bettor calls, original caller folds after calling the first bet. Last card, 4. Board now has no flush or straight possibilities. Again bet into, raise, get re-raised, call. Lose the hand. My Kings full loses to four 4′s. Could I have done something differently, or is this just something that happens.

Answer 1:

Something that happens. You played it perfectly. He had the best hand on the flop, you had the nuts on the turn, but got outdrawn. Some might even say you should have re-re-raised on the river with your second nut hand. The river 4 is the second-best card you could have possibly hoped for.

Answer 2:

Not a darn thing you could have done, unless you wanted to muck your KK on the flop, when the action indicated you were behind two pair or a set at that point.  In low limit HE, when someone flops a set, you’re never getting rid of him in the hand, no matter what you do or what the board shows. You probably could have shown him your 3 kings on the turn, and he still might not have folded. Someone hit a one-outer on the river to beat you, it hurts, but that’s holdem, move on to the next hand. In the long run, you’ll make plenty of money from people who call raises with 44 against your KK.

Answer 3:

Just to nitpick — while otherwise “me-tooing” — it’s worth pointing out /why/ the Four is the second-best card our Hero could hope for, given that three other cards (the case King, a Deuce, or a Trey) leave him with the mortal nuts. It’s because, given the action on the flop, you /want/ a lower House out
there. This time the Hero lost (and he lost two bets less than I would have, BTW, assuming I didn’t trash the Kings on the flop, which is a fairly good assumption), but next time — and the time after that, and the time after that — he’ll crush the other guy into pulp. I’ve seen low-limit players go nine or ten bets with the worst Full House possible. The case King is better because it gives the Hero the mortal nuts /and/ puts a lower House out there … plus, what low-limit player is going to credit runner-runner quad Kings before dropping half a rack on them? BTW, to nitpick my own nitpick, it’s arguable that an Eight or Nine is a tie with a Four in Hoping For Rank. On the one hand, a decent player might play pockets Eights or Nines while tossing Fours, which makes the quads slightly more likely. On the other hand, a bigger Full House is more likely to go more bets.  I think it’s a toss-up, myself.

Situation:  Large NL HE tourneys. “Early-to-middle” stages. Lots of tables remaining. At one table, with 10 players seated, the following occurs … Blinds are T300, #1 seat, sb (big stack) T500, #2 seat, bb (nearly all-in; about 3K remaining) T1000. #3 – 8 fold.  #9 (2nd big stack) calls. #10 folds.  #1 (sb) calls.  # 9 leans over and sez (heard only by sb and bb) “let’s see if bb goes all-in before or after the flop”.  Bb sez (heard only by #9) “no sense going all-in b4 the flop with the cards I’m holding”.  #2 (bb) checks. Flop comes 5 3 2 rainbow. #1 checks. #2 goes all-in. #9 stands up and looks around the room and sees that 3 tables are down to 6 players and believes that a break is coming up shortly and sez “Let’s call and then check this own,…  several tables are finished and this is the last hand for us at this table.  ‘Good luck, #2’ “… and then calls.  #1 calls. Turn is 7 and puts two spades on the board.  #1 check.  #9 checks. River is Ks… making the board:   5s 3c 2d 7s Ks.  #1 checks.  #9 checks. Players hands are:  #1 – 6h 9d, #2 – Qc 5c, #9 – 7h 6d.  #9 wins hand with one pair and #2 is busted. After the hand is over, player #5 (folded pre-flop) remarks “#9, your table talk could be construed to be a call for collusion. …” Someone who I’ve met and respect was in the #5 seat. A friend of mine was in the #2 seat. I was sitting in the #9 seat, and the #1 seat was a perfect stranger to me. While I may have a reputation as an aggressive player in tourneys, I don’t think that I’m known as an angler (leastwise I hope I’m not). What do you think?

Answer 1:

I think this is the classic reason the English consider table talk cheating. The guy probably didn’t think he was cheating and obviously no one was upset enough to raise hell about it, but the guy created a situation I wouldn’t like.

Answer 2:

If all I know about you is this one hand then you do not have a reputation as an aggressive player with me.  You do have the reputation as a team player and angler to me though.  If this is typical of your game then I really don’t want to play at a table you’re at.

Answer 3:

It appears that you’re honestly concerned about this, and I’m glad if that’s the case. Unfortunately, I think what you did is very much an unethical act, and if the tournament director had been called over, I think he should have penalized you in whatever manner is appropriate under the rules of that event. If you had called, waited for the next guy to call, and then said “I’m checking it all the way”, I would consider that somewhat unethical.  Here, you told the guy, before you even called, that you would check it all the way, at which point he knows that his risk in this pot is limited, and he can call with a wide variety of hands. If he doesn’t know this, he would probably fold a lot more often, which would give the all-in player a greater chance of survival. Thus, at some cost to yourself, but at a greater cost to the all-in player, you let the third player know that he could safely call the all-in bet, and not face any risk of losing more chips to you. Just imagine yourself in the place of the all-in player, and see if this doesn’t feel unfair to you. Hope your post helps you, and helps others avoid doing the same thing in the future. BTW, I think the following is both ethical, and promotes your edge in the tournament. Quietly call the all-in bet (if that’s what you’re inclined to do). Wait for the next guy to call. Then, check blind.  This will convey, to a regular tournament player, that you’re probably willing to check it all the way, but you haven’t said it as such. This route does not add any encouragement to the guy to call the all-in bet, but does increase the chances that he will check it down with you after that. Personally, when you reach the stage where you want to eliminate players more than you want to win chips, I only bet when someone is all-in if I’ve got a hand that is so likely to win, I want to make more money by getting called by the third player.  If I don’t think my hand is highly likely to beat the all-in on its own, I would tend to check.